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Post by dishmando on Nov 24, 2014 10:34:09 GMT -5
Hey boys, glad to say I may actually have a sled this season. Jointly acquired the above mentioned sled. Although I'm working the bugs out getting it to run smoothly, I think it may pan out. Question for you sledders....... I have no ownership for it..... I enquired about insurance, and the price isn't that bad, I'm just wondering if it's a case of going to the MTO and asking to register it? Anyone with some insight would be great. Also, the running issue, is that it won't idle the best. It hangs around 3K, then will drop down to 2K for abit..... Then eventually stall. Carb was thoroughly cleaned, all new fuel lines, fresh fuel/oil. Plugs end up just slightly wet when pulled after stalling.
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admin
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Welcome to the Cook's Bay Fishing Board
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Post by admin on Nov 24, 2014 11:15:56 GMT -5
It's best to have a pro set up the carb i find not just clean the jets. Replace the lines and re bulid the carb does wounders . Good luck .
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 24, 2014 12:22:12 GMT -5
What happens when you give it throttle do the rpm's tend to go all over the place? This could be a vacuum leak. Start with the basics, what kind of ignition system does it have? does it have a battery? if so does the battery loose voltage as the sled runs if so there may be an issue with the charging system. Put a meter on it and see if it looses voltage while running , it should not do this. the idle problem could be fuel or vacuum related. do you have all parts like air filters and exhaust on the sled? Does this sled use the mikuni carbs? is there a fuel pump between the gas tank and carbs, sometime if gas sits for a while it gels up and restricts gas flow. i usually go to tsc store and get clear vinyl fuel line tubing so that i can see there is a steady flow of gas going through the lines.
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Post by dishmando on Nov 25, 2014 10:27:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight guys. Steve, new fuel pump, fuel lines, new battery. Single mikuni carb that I've thoroughly cleaned at my shop. Fuel tanks now out so I can replace the line/filter in it. Throttle response is actually very snappy and responsive. I've set the air mixture screw to one turn as per manual. Just fiddled with the idle screw while running. I have the circlip on the throttle needle in the 3rd position. May try raising it one notch to lean it out a little. Gonna replace the pilot jet before the weekend. Haven't done a leak test yet. Hoping the crank seals ok. During the test run when I had figured out the pick up tube was an issue, I ran the sled off a jerry can. Would idle at 3K mostly, after messing with the idle screw, I'd get it down to 2K. It would run smoothly here for about 20-30 seconds, then wanna die if I didn't blip the throttle.
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Post by dishmando on Nov 25, 2014 10:29:08 GMT -5
And to add Stve, it's CDI. I haven't monitored voltage while running. I'll try this weekend.
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 26, 2014 12:29:47 GMT -5
Could be that there is something wrong with the cdi, after the engine warms up the cdi coils may be getting warm and it is effecting the quality of the spark at the spark plugs. Could be the voltage regulator/rectifier as well. Does the sled restart after it stalls out or do you have to put it on a charge after? if it does restart after dying it is probably not the rectifier or charging system but more than likely the cdi unit itself. If you know someone with a working Citation of similar year see if you can convince them to let you try there cdi in you sled before buying one. CDI issues are difficult to diagnose.
if you cleaned the carb and all the jets look clean with out very much corrosion on them, the jetting probably is not the issue. Although sometimes the float needle tends to stick in the seat due to corrosion, and it is usually best to just replace this part. Usually you will get fuel overflow from the float bowl if that happens. I would not change your needle height on a stock motor if it is running rich it is because some component in the carb is causing it and making compensations will not fix the actual problem.
The first thing I would do though is check that you your motor has the right spark plug in it, and if you don't know how old the spark plug is change it anyway. My buddy tore his bike apart searching for an issue with stalling and poor idle, and he was really pissed when I told him to put it back together and try a new spark plug I just happened to have in my trunk, and low and behold that was the issue.
This is how I clean my Vintage motorcycle carbs to ensure they are spotless, i completely disassemble them and use this vibration cleaning method, 50 50 mix of CLR and water and a electric sander. Make sure you rinse the parts off really well after, and let the carb sit for several days at room temp to let any water evaporate.
hope this helps,
Cheers
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 26, 2014 13:51:35 GMT -5
If it was running rich you would not have a high idle issue and if you stand behind the bike while it is running and the exhaust smoke makes your eyes tear up, it is probably running rich. Sounds funny that you can tell a rich idle that way but its true, and it is nothing to cry over. lol, if you think the sled is running rich take the air filter off and run it, if it runs better it is running rich at idle and may benefit from a decreased slow jet size. If you have the bike running and put the choke on and it runs better, it is probably running too lean, and would benefit from and increased slow jet.
My guess would be its running to lean or bad spark from faulty cdi, causing spark plug fouling.
a leak down or compression test is good to do but if the sled runs it usually means the compression is decent.
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Post by dishmando on Nov 26, 2014 15:59:54 GMT -5
The info is priceless Steve. Thanks a bunch. Also, that ultra sonic scaler is the first thing I'll be making this weekend. Great vid! As for diagnosis..... I'll definitely start with the plugs. The sleds been sitting indoors for almost a decade. After that, and a descaling, if it doesn't run well, I'll throw the multimeter on it and verify readings while its running. It's a bugger to start after its stalled. It's as though it needs priming to get it going.
Details to follow
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Post by dishmando on Nov 27, 2014 13:11:36 GMT -5
That it is
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 15:37:32 GMT -5
Haha no way i got the same machine just made by motoski. its the mirage 377 special! last year i got it siezed from a shed and rebuilt the top end. runs great but 1000km on it last year Lol. if you want to see it i could post a few pics.
As for your problem with the engine and the running. it sounds like you have a crank seal leak. it could be any one of the seals on the engine crank as the engine warms up the seal expands and causes lose of the vaccum. Needs a vaccum gauge put on the impulse line and see if it holds. if its a crank seal problem you have to split the engine crankcase and re seal it if the bearings are good. i got a 377 manual im pretty sure there is a centre seal between the two counter weights. ill take a look at the manual and get back to you
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Post by dishmando on Nov 27, 2014 16:20:28 GMT -5
Cool, thanks. I've downloaded the service manual. I'll look into further though and post results.
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Post by sash on Nov 27, 2014 21:32:58 GMT -5
sounds like you are checking all the right things, some things i used to do when trouble shooting was spray fuel from a spray bottle around intake manifolds and crank seals, anything rubber that might be sucking air,venting problems were always a big thing, i'd always check spark immediately after it stalled out and also spray fuel into the spark plug hole and try to start it again so i knew if it was a intake/exhaust, compression or spark problem i was chasing. 2 stroke exhausts carbon up too, heat them up and hit them with cold water give em a tap to knock the carbon out. my 2 stroke knowledge is fading since it was mostly bikes i worked on but good luck, you've got some good advice already and the service manual is so great cause they usually have a troubleshooting section.
1 of the shops i worked at had a carb cleaning tank (which i spent my entire apprenticeship in) that we would hook up an air line to so the carbs would move around in the tank and the customers would always tell us they cleaned them properly and that wasn't the problem even after we gave them back their properly running bike and told them we cleaned the carbs that was the problem. since it's a single carb u didn't put the slides in backwards, that was always my fav.lol
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Post by dishmando on Nov 27, 2014 22:57:38 GMT -5
Good stuff. I'm a diesel mechanic by trade, so the troubleshooting skills are there, probably not in the right order though!!! Lol I appreciate all the input, cuz it also gets my mind rolling in different directions, in case I've missed a step.
Cheers
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admin
Global Moderator
Canadian
Welcome to the Cook's Bay Fishing Board
Posts: 6,215
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Post by admin on Nov 28, 2014 6:09:53 GMT -5
I think you guys are great the way you help each other, very impresave to see.
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Post by dishmando on Nov 28, 2014 10:34:17 GMT -5
It is. And I'm glad that where my deficiencies are, the other members can help me out on. This summer was another example of it. I learned an exorbitant amount of info on outboards. All through here, a little internet research, and tinkering away myself.
It's good that this isn't just a "where to catch fish" board, and that some share their knowledge. It makes for an "all round" board, which is entertaining to come back to daily, weekly, or however often some drop in.
P.S. Hey Peter, I'm still waiting on my CBFB hat/winter beanie!! Lol
Cheers
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 28, 2014 13:58:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight guys. Steve, new fuel pump, fuel lines, new battery. Single mikuni carb that I've thoroughly cleaned at my shop. Fuel tanks now out so I can replace the line/filter in it. Throttle response is actually very snappy and responsive. I've set the air mixture screw to one turn as per manual. Just fiddled with the idle screw while running. I have the circlip on the throttle needle in the 3rd position. May try raising it one notch to lean it out a little. Gonna replace the pilot jet before the weekend. Haven't done a leak test yet. Hoping the crank seals ok. During the test run when I had figured out the pick up tube was an issue, I ran the sled off a jerry can. Would idle at 3K mostly, after messing with the idle screw, I'd get it down to 2K. It would run smoothly here for about 20-30 seconds, then wanna die if I didn't blip the throttle. After re reading this post it reminded me of an issue I had with my 1972 Suzuki 2 stroke dirt bike I have, which is still currently my daily ride in the summer. The problem with old bikes or sleds is that the vinyl wire insulation gets dry and starts to crack especially around bends along the frame. In my case it was right behind the ignition cylinder (where to put your key into). The wire harness bent down within and inch of the ignition and at that spot the vinyl insulation cracked causing the wires to short if the wires touched during riding. This electrical short did not blow any fuses but would cause the bike to die randomly because the current was flowing through the shorted out wire apposed to through the complete electrical circuit. Seeing as how your sled is very old the wiring should be thoroughly inspected for cracks and shorts just to cross another simple diagnostic off your list.
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Post by jmharris on Nov 28, 2014 14:09:18 GMT -5
www.dootalk.com/forums/forum/8-vintage-ski-doos/This is also a very good place if you are looking for help with any ski doo. There are tons of posts pinned for carb issues and everything. I also have a 80's citation, it never left me stranded on the lake. There is also an ontario section in the general section on Doo talk. Lots of good info. Also, getting an ownership for that old of a sled is not too difficult, they will want you to contact the previous owner though if it has been registered. If it was a farm sled and was never registered you just need an affidavit saying you bought it. Hope that helps, good luck.
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 28, 2014 17:09:55 GMT -5
back in the old days sleds would typically change owners a lot without ownership especially if it was being used just on your own property, now a days it different. However, you may even be able to register it without an ownership because of its age. You will have to get the person you bought it from to go in with you to fill out an affidavit, you may need to get that affidavit signed by a notary public. Its just to show that you did your due diligence and as far as you know the sled is not stolen.
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Post by dishmando on Nov 28, 2014 23:56:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight guys...... But now I've run into a wall. Don't think its a major one, but regardless. Situation now is this, I put the tank back in, fueled up, and now find myself with no spark to either cylinder!!!!
I've, bypassed the kill switch... Physically pushed the tether kill, in by hand while cranking. Unplugged all visible connectors and reconnected, I'm kinda lost on proper checks for the CDI and ignition coil.
Sighhhh......
I'm kinda linking this to my idle issue hopefully. Thinking there wasn't enough spark at a lower rpm to burn the incoming fuel.
Fingers crossed....... Back to the drawing board I go.
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Post by ScubaSteve on Nov 29, 2014 17:36:22 GMT -5
Checking for continuity is pretty much all you can do. If there is no spark it is deffinately and electrical problem, check your battery voltage with a multimeter, seriously, check it. If there was something wrong with the charging system than every time to started it and it died it was draining the battery. The guy you bought it from may have known it had a charging system issue and just charged the battery up to show you it was a runner.
I am not sure if sirius consolidated will carry parts for your sled or not but they may.
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